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Re: F5 upgrade (Formulae and extended info)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:42 am
Posts: 2847
apt wrote:
Cleroth wrote:
You won't see what protections we come up with, since that would be pretty much giving them the key to bypass the protection.


wiki wrote:
Kerckhoffs's principle was reformulated (or perhaps independently formulated) by Claude Shannon as "the enemy knows the system", i.e., "one ought to design systems under the assumption that the enemy will immediately gain full familiarity with them".[citation needed] In that form, it is called Shannon's maxim.

That is in an ideal world. Unfortunately we don't live in one. If it were the case, then governments wouldn't bother on having secrets, would they? Sure, you should assume that the system can be understood by the 'enemy' at some point, but the harder it is to understand, the more robust the system is. Security through obscurity is much more common in online video games that you'd think. Why do you think some games have gone so far as to create more and more sophisticated executable packing, encryption and virtual machines?
With that being said, there is no fool's proof method that will prevent macros at 100% success rate. There's 'macros' that are performed in the Mouse's hardware. How the hell do you think I'm going to prevent that? lol.

As for the formulae... They are rather complex in their nature, mainly because they depend on so many variables. I did make a 3D graph before showing the connection between MR and hitratio, in which one could clearly see why it's broken (and why it can't be solved by just changing the variable, one would have to change the function itself). Unfortunately I can't find this graph. It might still be on these forums... somewhere. There's some info on the hitratio/dr formula here (the number 65 is the "hit ratio factor". It has been changed to 63).
Also an old (possibly slightly out-of-date) topic on MR.
But yea, I started up a Wiki sometime a go for info like this, as well as general info on the game. Not a single person bothered to contribute. Eventually it was filled with bots that slowed our webserver down, and since nobody used it, I just went the easy way and deleted the wiki.


GM-Thalia wrote:
Misleading label:
Item mods and Mag-related formulae:
MP regen +3d(Mag/3) (+3d66)
Cause: Misplaced brackets

Come on, the semantics here are mean - that second part, I presume, is the actual character data. So why is it placed there along the generic term "Mag". The user is unable to substitute the value of the label called "Mag" and divide it by 3?

First off, you have to realize that most of this stuff is going to be most frequently used by people that will be used to this and just need to get a quick figure of some numbers. This system provides 1. Info for players that don't know the formula by heart, 2. Info that is quick to access (how much MP regen am I getting from my Mag?), but not necessarily as quick to calculate in your mind (can you really divide by 3 that quickly? I honestly can't).
With that in mind, I don't think that label is that confusing. I do remember thinking it could be confusing when I wrote it, but I thought that most players would eventually figure it out by giving it... a few seconds of thought. Once you've understood what it means, you can reuse that label as a tool to know what info you want and quickly. This is what's important. In the case that you really didn't understand what the numbers mean, I'm sure logging a different char with a different amount of Mag will eventually make you figure it out. But yea... I think it would be clearer if it read this instead:
Quote:
MP regen: +3d(Mag/3) = +3d66

If you still don't understand that... then you probably wouldn't make much use of knowing that formula anyway.

GM-Thalia wrote:
Overwhelming label:
Level-related formulae:
1 lvl = +2 max sp, hp, mp..
We get it, there is character simulator... in-game
Cause: Misplaced equations

And? If you find it too verbose, just toggle the tooltips off.

GM-Thalia wrote:
And then "Higher level increases casting probability and magic hit ratio" - good to know, right, is there "magic casting probability" anywhere on f5?

What?

GM-Thalia wrote:
The total aka "Max" HP aka Health also Hit (HB USA) Points formula is present in the trivia event logs.

What?

GM-Thalia wrote:
I was wondering, would it be possible to order the current (5.8) stat labels as equations or aesthetics go as far as taskbar image mods only?

What?


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Re: F5 upgrade (Formulae and extended info)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:03 pm 
GM-Thalia wrote:
Overwhelming label:
Level-related formulae:
1 lvl = +2 max sp, hp, mp..
We get it, there is character simulator... in-game
Cause: Misplaced equations

cleroth wrote:
And? If you find it too verbose, just toggle the tooltips off.


It's not like it's too verbose, it just might be represented shorter.

GM-Thalia wrote:
And then "Higher level increases casting probability and magic hit ratio" - good to know, right, is there "magic casting probability" anywhere on f5?

cleroth wrote:
What?


It's unclear, how does level affect casting probability and magic hit ratio. Maybe you can add a tooltip to the magic casting probability label on the f7 dialog.


GM-Thalia wrote:
The total aka "Max" HP aka Health also Hit (HB USA) Points formula is present in the trivia event logs.

cleroth wrote:
What?


I've once mentioned as an additional comment to the trivia event log, that it might act as a source of data, that has to be filled in. Applying the method, you proposed, logging different characters with different stats allows us to deduce certain formula like this one for example. Once that is done - I'm trying to figure out, who else was curious enough to do it, by asking trivia questions, thus making the curious ones share their observations, that sooner or later become common knowledge.

Recent trivia event was based on this post and I assure you, none of the participants have understood the MP regen formula notation.

GM-Thalia wrote:
I was wondering, would it be possible to order the current (5.8) stat labels as equations or aesthetics go as far as taskbar image mods only?

cleroth wrote:
What?


You have added extra tooltips to the f5, which is great, but have you considered reordering the current stat labels, so that they are at least grouped together to form valuable info?
For example in case total HP depends on STR, VIT and level - those 3 might be aligned next to each other in a way, extra labels might be toggled visible / invisible next to the actual text boxes, that form the equation, that leads to the fourth text box.
The layout of the f5 dialog right now holds no information at all. There is no special meaning in the way the 6 labeled text boxes (str, dex, int, mag, vit, chr) are placed. Same goes for the rest of the labeled text boxes on the right hand side.


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Re: F5 upgrade (Formulae and extended info)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:19 pm
Posts: 305
wiki wrote:
Kerckhoffs's principle was reformulated (or perhaps independently formulated) by Claude Shannon as "the enemy knows the system", i.e., "one ought to design systems under the assumption that the enemy will immediately gain full familiarity with them".[citation needed] In that form, it is called Shannon's maxim.

Cleroth wrote:
That is in an ideal world. Unfortunately we don't live in one. If it were the case, then governments wouldn't bother on having secrets, would they? Sure, you should assume that the system can be understood by the 'enemy' at some point, but the harder it is to understand, the more robust the system is. Security through obscurity is much more common in online video games that you'd think. Why do you think some games have gone so far as to create more and more sophisticated executable packing, encryption and virtual machines?


Because they are served lunch at work.

Cleroth wrote:
With that being said, there is no fool's proof method that will prevent macros at 100% success rate.


There is - ban couple of polish players. ;]

Cleroth wrote:
There's 'macros' that are performed in the Mouse's hardware. How the hell do you think I'm going to prevent that? lol.


http://www.amazon.com/Fragpedal-Quad-PC ... pd_cp_MI_2

trololo

Cleroth wrote:
As for the formulae... They are rather complex in their nature, mainly because they depend on so many variables. I did make a 3D graph before showing the connection between MR and hitratio, in which one could clearly see why it's broken (and why it can't be solved by just changing the variable, one would have to change the function itself). Unfortunately I can't find this graph. It might still be on these forums... somewhere. There's some info on the hitratio/dr formula here (the number 65 is the "hit ratio factor". It has been changed to 63).
Also an old (possibly slightly out-of-date) topic on MR.


Thanks a lot for the references.

Cleroth wrote:
But yea, I started up a Wiki sometime a go for info like this, as well as general info on the game. Not a single person bothered to contribute. Eventually it was filled with bots that slowed our webserver down, and since nobody used it, I just went the easy way and deleted the wiki.


That's just sad. Maybe I should try to provide a LaTeX template and let people fill in the gaps. Are people doing fine with GIT? I'll go ahead and share a repository. ;]


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Re: F5 upgrade (Formulae and extended info)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:12 pm 
I wanted to start adding the jpegs to the wiki and was learning how to do it when BOOM hb portal closed lol.
I would still be happy to do this from the game files if the wiki was put up and someone could do the templates and text bits.


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